Yes, I read the story. The email is flooding in asking my opinion. This is nothing new.
What am I talking about? Pope Benedict XVI released a document that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches. (Go ahead, stomp around the room. I'll wait)
Glad you are back... In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II’s ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been “erroneous or ambiguous” and had prompted confusion and doubt.
Well good, it should be clear what the Church teaches and believes. I don't think anyone would disagree. Yet in the past, Protestant and other Christian denominations have become upset because they are described as not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”
In the new document and an accompanying commentary, the Vatican repeated that position.
“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,” the document said. The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles.
Can you really fault anyone for seeking to belong to the one true Church? The Catholic church does not seek to shun or degrade any other denomination. But we are called to speak the truth in love and it should be the desire of the Church to rebuke error and invite believers to follow a righteous path. It is impossible to accomplish this by being political correct and claiming that as long as your church believes in Jesus nothing else really matters.
I know this is not popular, but truth rarely is.
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43 comments:
I can imagine all of the angry feedback that will come from this comment, but those other demoninations have to stop and consider what they say about Catholics, we worship idols, we say repetitious prayers, the Mass is a sacrifice, etc.
No surprises here. Benny 16 is trying to pull the RCC away from the "Spirit of Vatican 2" phenomenon... otherwise known as "Let's make the RCC resemble the Episcopalian Church!"
His saying that is no different than me saying that I don't believe the RCC is the "one true church". It is merely a statement of opinion, and none of us will know who is right until we are on the other side of that last breath. So no sense getting worked up over it.
;)
In the mean time, let's continue to do the work Christ instructed us to do. I know the Pittsburgh Food Bank could use volunteers distributing food, for example. I usually go down to the Produce To The People on the Southside on the fourth Saturday of the month (July 28th is the next one). Hope to see some of you there, as I'm tired of being outnumbered by liberal Atheists. :D
Hmm, now where did I leave that hammer, nail and copy of 95 Theses?
So much for the Joint Declaration and its 5th year anniversary, huh?
Bill C.
where is produce to people on the south side, I would be interested in joining you in food distribution.
Click Here and look at the volunteering info. Contact Wendy Lachendro. She'll give you all of the information. They always need extra help in the summer with so many of the students gone. Just let her know you are interested in the Produce To The People distribution on the South Side.
Sorry to hijack, Powerball.
Back to the topic at hand, I have noticed an awful lot of ecclesiastical chest pounding on the part of Catholics over this.
I don't feel that there is a lot of ecclesiastical chest pounding on the part of Catholics over this statement, we are usually the ones criticized and often made fun of, some other demoninations don't even consider us to be Christians.
After all is said and done, we'll know after we meet our maker who was right, maybe we all are!
No chest pounding here. To me this is old news. Unseen has it right. My fear is some will use this to cause a deeper divsion. I did have a few interesting conversations about this and strangly enough they have been positive.
If you can put ego aside and just look at it as "this is what the RC Church believes" then I think it can spark some interesting talk.
The Joint Declaration states what we agree on. That should be a starting pont not the finish line.
I hope to talk about on the show today at 5:30.
I didn't get to hear the show.
I agree the Joint Declaration is a beginning, and one I'm pleased with. Based on the news article at hand, though, it seems contradictory to the Joint Declaration in that non-Catholics are wrong and don't have salvation. Maybe I'm misreading the JDoJ, but I'm pretty sure it indicates some agreement on justification being connected with salvation.
I do want to say, despite my disappointment at this pronouncement, I still respect the pope for standing by his beliefs.
And how is it the Orthodox church seems to get a pass because of apostolic succession, but only the Orthodox. Historic, apostolic succession is exactly why the new Lutheran bishop is being installed in an Anglican church (or so I thought).
And, maybe just nitpicking, but Christ didn't come to "establish one church." To the best of my teaching, he came to proclaim the immanent reign of God, not establish a church. He was working from within an established "church system." Hmm, a "reformer" of sorts, turning the hierarchy upside-down...no wonder he was "excommunicated" and threatened with death.
Bill C.
A lot of the Non-Catholic christians also believe that Catholics are not saved, if one listens to Catholic radio, they are explaining what the Pope meant and how people are taking it out of context.
I have to say that this has been one of the most refeshing discussions I've had in a long time. For the most part it has not been nasty and I thank all of you for a respectful discussion.
I look at it this way: The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. If your destination is Jesus and his gift of salvation, what is the most direct path? To me the answer is through the RC Church. Other have a different answer.
A woman called the show and said after 30 years in the Catholic Church she never heard the gospel. How can that be? There are 3 Scripture readings in every mass plus a homily. This is true worldwide. Even if you were deaf, would one not wonder who the person hanging on the cross in the center of the church is? You would have to be in a coma to miss the gospel.
I ask all of you to consider this. Know and understand what you choose to accpet or reject. If you truly examine the Catholic Church (and not just through some Jack Chick tract)and understand what is taught and believed and still find it contradicts the Word of God, then you have every right to reject it.
I have not met one person that has done that when it come to Catholic teaching. Many have questions or have been told things, but few really know what they condem.
Again, thank you all for a wonderful discussion.
If you truly examine the Catholic Church (and not just through some Jack Chick tract)and understand what is taught and believed and still find it contradicts the Word of God, then you have every right to reject it. I have not met one person that has done that when it come to Catholic teaching.
Well, now you have.
And it is because I understand what the RCC teaches that I still respect it, even though I disagree with some of its teachings.
Congrats Unseen one. But I still never met you.
To be honest, I don't agree with all the Church teachings. There are things I stuggle with, but I do seek to follow them because that is the commitment I personally made during my confirmation.
But I still never met you.
...maybe you have and just don't know it yet... ;)
Where do you find that the Catholic church contradicts the word of God Unseen one?
Do you agree with all of your churchs teaching? and if so, why.
Those that say that the Catholics contradict the word of God don't know Jack about the teachings of the church in the first place.
Thanks for your enlightened proclamation of my knowledge of the teachings of the Catholic church, M.J. Since you seem to be psychic and can tell me my thoughts and level of knowledge, please use your gifts in a constructive manner and provide me with tonight's lottery numbers. ;)
Anon, my disagreements are the same things that have been hashed over and over time and time again. I see several teachings that are based on taking some verses out of context. The issues are the sinlessness of Mary and all that that entails, the Real Presence, the Sacrament of Penance, salvation being through the RCC, what Christ meant by "binding and loosing", Papal Infallibility... I could go on, but I do not wish to hijack Powerball's blog to refight battles that have been fought without conclusion for the last 2000 years.
And no, I don't agree with absolutely everything my church teaches. But my disagreements are things I see as minor... alcohol, gambling, tattoos, etc.
the issues that are brought up the sinlessness of Mary the sacrament of penance and the other things mentioned are all in the Bible.
to Unseen One- I'm not claiming to be psychic or anything else, I just get tired of people shooting their mouth off when they don't know the facts.
Show me where it says "Mary was conceived without sin" or "The only way to have mortal sins forgiven is through the sacrament of penance".
M.J., I've been through five years of Catholic school and when I left the Lutheran Church, I did an extensive study of the doctrine of various denominations, including Roman Catholicism, before I decided where I belonged. I know the teachings of the Catholic Church, and I can see as plain as day where they contradict the Bible. Your claim that I "don't know the facts" is arrogant and flat out wrong.
To the unseen One; Mary was a virgin before and after the birth of Jesus: Mt 1: 18-25; Lk 1: 26-27, re. confession Jesus gave authority to his apostles to forgive sins Jn. 20: 22-23 if you forgive sins they are forgiven if you retain sins, they are retained. Also Mt. 6:14.
I'm sorry to disagree with you, unseen one but I've been a practicing Catholic all of my life and I feel that your statement about the Catholic church contradicting the bible is wrong, please read a book entitled Catholic and Christian, there you will find that everything belief is scripturally based.
Anon 4:27... no, I mean for real, show me.
There is NOTHING in those verses about Mary being a Virgin AFTER Jesus was born, and it is even implied that she WASN'T in Mt 1:25 (But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son).
As to penance, I see nothing about that being the only way to have "mortal" sins forgiven in those verses. 1 John 1:9 talks about confessing our sins to Christ himself, and that He will forgive our sins.
I could go on about things like purgatory, Mary's sinlessness, salvation, Papal infallibility, etc., but I'm sure you get where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree with me. Then again, I'm not trying to convince you that your denomination is wrong. Rather, I am just demonstrating how I arrived at my conclusions.
Am I right? Who knows. It is possible I'm wrong. It is possible that I am right. It is possible that Papa Benny is right. It is possible that Jack Chick is right. We'll find out on the other side of that last breath. Until then, we have faith.
Anon 4:29, I've read many such books, and they are all the same. They take verses in ways that I believe are out of context in order to justify their positions and beliefs.
If you come from the RC perspective of only the church can properly interpret scripture, then I can completely understand why you believe I am wrong. Hey, that is what you are supposed to believe. I've no problem with it. However, if one looks at scripture objectively in light of scripture and biblical context, I hope you can see why others might arrive at a different conclusion.
I don't feel that these scripture verses are taken out of context to justify our beliefs,that what every Non-Catholic says. I can say the same thing to you then, you're taking them out of context to justify your beliefs, so its a never ending battle, you believe what you want and I'll believe what I want to believe, in the end we'll all see who was right and who was wrong, fair enough?
Instead of everyone fighting over a no win battle why don't you guys read the rest of the blogs, especially about the Papal decree listed at the top of the blogs.
in the end we'll all see who was right and who was wrong, fair enough?
Exactly.
Hope to see you all at Produce To The People on the South Side!
Wow, anon 4:52... it took you 27 posts before chastising everyone for discussing their faith. ;)
A thought occurred to me on the way home yesterday. Doesn't it stand to reason that I would believe that the Roman Catholic denomination's doctrine runs contrary to the Bible? If I didn't believe this, I would be Roman Catholic after all.
I don't know what the unseen means by saying that there were 27 posts chastising everyone for discussing their faith, I don't think that was the point anyone was trying to make, I was just defending what the Catholic church teaches. If I believed on your lines, I would be whatever faith you are, right.
to unseen one--Did you read the papal decree? the news put it out of perspective.
Guys, Guys, these discussions lead no where, we're never going to agree about certain things, I feel that we should concentrate on what we do agree on and try to bridge our gaps instead of making them wider, if anyone agrees with this please respond.
I don't know what the unseen means by saying that there were 27 posts chastising everyone for discussing their faith
That's not what I meant.
Every time there is a conversation on a post that causes interdenominational disagreement, someone comes on and posts anonymously about how these are the only posts that get comments and no one comments on the other posts. It happens every single time like clockwork. I was commenting on how it took 27 comments before said anonymous poster did his obligatory "Why doesn't anyone comment on the other posts" comment.
;)
Jeb: Yes, I read parts of it. Did you read through my posts? If you care to do so, you'll see that I never got up in arms about the decree. In fact, given my understanding of Roman Catholicism, I complete see why he would do so: to put his foot down on the growing liberalism within the clergy.
The discussion has long since morphed past that.
I think that everyone is too touchy and take comments out of context, why not comment on some of the other blogs, everyone seems to want to argue about things that will never get solved.
Why doesn't anyone comment on the other posts???????
Oh, boo hoo! Don't like it, don't read it.
Anon--I do like it, and I post on other blogs, boo hoo!!!!
It started out so well...
Sad to say, these kind of topics seem to bring out the worse in people.
People have a lot emotionally invested in their faith. When someone is perceived as criticizing it, they often shoot from the hip.
I agree with the Unseen one, when someone preceives that another is criticizing their faith, it stirs up a hornets nest, best not to debate about it, especially when people get so mean.
Wow, over 40 comments on this blog and hardly any hits on the others.
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