Hey Powerball,
What's this "no salvation outiside the catholic church" stuff? Do you really believe that you have to be catholic to saved?
You are asking two different things here. What the church teaches and my own beliefs. Let's start with what the church teaches. Some people claim that the Second Vatican Council reversed previous Church teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. The Catholic position on “no salvation outside the Church” has not changed. What Vatican II sought to do is clarify the meaning more precisely,
If Jesus is God, and He left us the Catholic Church as His instrument of salvation on earth, then we cannot of ourselves create some other means of salvation than the one God gave us. In other words, we can’t say to God: “Thanks for your plan, but I’ll do it my own way.” What Vatican II had to say on the subject was that some have a saving communion with the Church even if they don’t have an intellectual understanding of such. In other words, they are members of the Church, albeit in an imperfect way, but are not within the visible confines of the Church.
Vatican II said that if a person is, through no fault of their own, ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the true Church, such a person may attain salvation although they are in an impoverished situation. A person who knows the Catholic Church is true and refuses to embrace the Catholic faith would be accountable for the refusal of God’s plan of salvation.
What I believe is this. If you are truly a Christian you are part of the catholic (universal) church. Salvation comes from Christ not any church. I also believe the Catholic church is the true guardian of the gospel and the most direct path to living and learning the teachings of Jesus.
34 comments:
Well put, now, lets address the question to the people who tell Catholics that they aren't "save."
People like Jack Chick who believe that there will be no Catholics in heaven are ignorant of Catholicism. I've known several Catholics that I believe are saved.
"Protestants" believe that Christ is the instrument of salvation on earth. Some Catholics, instead of putting their faith in Christ, put their faith in the Catholic Church. From my understanding, by Catholic doctrine, there is no problem there. However, Bible-Christians do see a problem there.
I can't speak for all Catholics, but I feel most of us do put our faith in Christ, not the Catholic Church, the church is the vessel that leads us to Christ, just as the church of a Bible Christian or any other Christian is there to lead them to Christ.
the church ... is there to lead them to Christ.
Evangelism then yes, but anything else is getting the cart BEFORE the horse!
The Church cannot save me, nor does it have any 'stock' in my salvation. None whatsoever.
Should I believe in (place sole truct in him for the payment and settlement of sin on my account) Christ, his death and resurection, I am promised salvation, redemption, reconcilation, adoption, membership in the Body which is the Church of which Christ is sole head, and a host of other countless blessings.
Theological bent has NOTHING to do with it.
No one is closer to God than any other - for God has made himself readily available to ALL and is 'near everyone of us'. So seek after Him!
Catholics see no difference between Christ and his Church. After all when he confronted Saul on the road to Damascus he didn't say why are persecuting my Church, he said "why are you persecuting me."
I disagree Sprocket, I'm not saying that the church is saving us, I'm saying that the church is leading us to Christ just as a shepard leads his sheep.
How does the modern RCC reconcile the 2nd vatican council with the following proclaimations:
Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."
Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam (1302): "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."
Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum: "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ... For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'"
Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical, Summo Jugiter: "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved."
Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos: "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ... Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors."
Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth."
Those pronouncements, which are considered infallible, leave absolutely no room for the liberal modern Catholic definition of "invincible ignorance." As one who has attended mass, gone to a Catholic school, soundly rejected many aspects of Catholic teachings, opting instead to be a Baptist, I would be considered hellbound by the writers of those statements. Just as I am considered hellbound by Traditionalist Catholics. Yet modern Catholics agree that there is a "pretty good chance" I will given salvation upon judgment.
This conflicting information, along with conflicts between the changing RCC beliefs over the years and Scripture, proves to me that the RCC is not who she says she is.
As for your statement of what the church believes vs what you believe:
Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum: "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."
How do you reconcile that?
I'm not trying to be a jerk or overly confrontational. These are issues I have been looking for answers to since I was in 8th grade, and never have they been reconciled.
Catholics see no difference between Christ and his Church. After all when he confronted Saul on the road to Damascus he didn't say why are persecuting my Church, he said "why are you persecuting me."
You confuse essence with relationship. To insult my wife is to insult me. In relationship we are ONE flesh, in essence obviously we don't constitute a two headed thing!
Christ is not the Church and the Church is not Christ. To believe so is to denegrate one of the greatest mysteries of God (Eph)
I disagree Sprocket, I'm not saying that the church is saving us, I'm saying that the church is leading us to Christ just as a shepard leads his sheep.
And I disagree with that ... the Church is the fold in which the saved sheep (the flock) are kept until the One, Great, True, and Good Shepherd comes back for them. Those who are in the Church are already led to Christ - they are His; they know His voice.
I think that name hidden is being harsh saying that the RCC is not what she says she really is, I can say that of other religions too, but I won't, all Non-Catholic people that I've talked to tell me that I'm not saved because I'm a Catholic, so who is calling the kettle black now, I guess we'll know who got saved and who didn't on judgement day, passing judgement on one another is not very nice and ends up getting nasty, I was taught to respect others beliefs even if I didn't agree with with.
I wasn't trying to be harsh. The RCC says it is the "One True Church", is infallible, and is the only true pillar of Truth. I pointed out some inconsistencies that have proved to me that the RCC is not those three things, hence it is not what it claims to be.
I am in NO WAY saying that Catholics can't be or aren't already saved, or judging others' salvation. Just stating an observation and inviting an explaination.
all Non-Catholic people that I've talked to tell me that I'm not saved because I'm a Catholic, so who is calling the kettle black now
I have never said that, so your statement doesn't apply to me.
I think that name hidden is being harsh saying that the RCC is not what she says she really is, I can say that of other religions too,...
Christianity is NO RELIGION - it is a RELATIONSHIP.
To equate it as such denegrates it and to pursue it will result in eternal damnation. God doesn't want servants - He wants Sons. To serve God without being a Son is to rely on one's righteousness as passage into God's presence. He calls our righteousness fithly rags ...
I'm NOT saying EVERY Catholic is on this pursuit (and I'm not saying you are either) - but some indeed are. Many non-Catholics are on the same road - it is broad and wide and well travelled.
One cannot be a child of God sans relationship.
Relationship results in a change of heart.
The heart is the center of decisive commitment.
If my commitments are not totally and utterly turned over to God and faith placed in Him to hand me what I need as He sees fit moment by moment - can I call myself a child of God?
Pursue God as He has commanded - forget what people say. He's the ultimate judge, not I nor they (whoever they maybe and no matter how spirital they might think themselves to be).
Agree, Christianity is a relationship, not a religion, so why don't we all act like christians towards each other the way Jesus would want us to, I try to see the face of Jesus in every person that I meet.
Agree, Christianity is a relationship, not a religion, so why don't we all act like christians towards each other the way Jesus would want us to, I try to see the face of Jesus in every person that I meet.
There is a discussion going on - people are trying to uncover the truth; separating fact from fiction and fact from emotion.
There is no animosity going on that I can see ...
discussions are fine, disrespect of anothers beliefs is not.
Where did I show disrespect? Catholics are always hammering it down my throat that the RCC is the "One True Church", is incapable of teaching error, etc. Asking questions that are difficult to answer does not equal disrespect of anothers belief.
Asking questions is not disrespectful but its the same old things over and over, just like someone said before, no one responds to any other topic here unless it deals with a religious debate, and I find that to be true, there are other interesting topics here and there are only one or 2 responses, and yes, I've responded to many in the past but I feel like anon. more people should also respond to some of the other topics, the questions regarding any religions won't ever be resolved, thats why there are so many different demoninations.
what about the Madonna performance, does anyone wish to comment on that????
what about the Madonna performance, does anyone wish to comment on that????
I did. She is such an attention whore who can't stand the thought of getting old. That's what happens when one is lost.
I'd hate to be in her shoes on judgment day.
Asking questions is not disrespectful but its the same old things over and over
So that makes it disrespectful? If you get asked the same thing more than once you are being disrecpected. Absurd.
just like someone said before, no one responds to any other topic here unless it deals with a religious debate
What should the Church of God being dealing with? Things surrounding the nature of God or shameful acts by shameful people? Good to see where your priorities lie.
more people should also respond to some of the other topics,
AGAIN - I'll repeat ... I don't see you posting there. I don't see a discussion between a few anons (seeing as there are two here on this post) on these topics. Put your money where your mouth is - go and post over there. I know you'll say you have. But there's no visible trace to it. Got get a screen name and practice what you are imposing on others.
the questions regarding any religions won't ever be resolved,
Ah - the conclusion of a man with no faith in a God whose desire is that His people be One. You want to practice the art of avoidance. Christ plainly showed the art of confrontation. He is a rock of offence. Why? Because there is only ONE truth.
thats why there are so many different demoninations.
Not really. You confuse cause with effect.
First of all I don't like your comments about where my priorities lie, you don't know me, second, you don't know how many times I've posted here, why don't you post on other topics more yourself, put your money where your mouth is.
Second, I'm not practicing the art of avoidance, I think its useless to bring up the same topics over and over, you believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, the Catholic church has been around for thousands of years, so it can stand the test of time, not confusing cause with effort.
To the people arguing back and forth, its senseless, Catholics and Non-Catholics will never see eye to eye on anything, so why don't you guys give it a rest.
Funny how all I'm getting is "Shut up!" and no answers to my legitimate questions.
what are your legitimate questions?
How are the pronouncements in my second comment on this post reconciled with the modern Catholic view of salvation of non-Catholics?
What are your views of salvation for Catholics?
What are your views of salvation for Catholics?
A lot better than the Catholic church's view of salvation for non-Catholics, apparently.
I believe that putting one's faith in Christ and repenting of one's sins will save a person's soul from the fires of Hell. By faith, I don't mean "belief", I mean life changing faith and all that it encompasses: repentance, transformation of one's life, and receiving of the Holy Spirit.
I've known many Catholics that I believe were saved. Some of the most Godly people I've know have been Catholics. I believe the only difference between a saved Catholic and a saved Baptist (as an example) is the way they worship.
I am talking here about "Modernist" Catholics, which make up about 99% of the Catholic church. Traditionalists (SSPXers), well, I've yet to meet one that I believe is saved. They are usually rife with anger towards other denominations, including modernist Catholics, are almost gleeful in their pronouncements that they believe non-Catholics are going to hell, and instead of Christ, the ones I've met put their faith their denomination, which I believe leads to damnation. Again, these are the Traditionalists I've met and interacted with on the web.
Are there Traditionalists who are saved? I'm sure there are. I just haven't met any yet.
Rank and file Catholics, yes, I believe there are many who are saved (Powerball for one, as an example).
I don't understand what you mean by modernist and traditionalist Catholics, are there modernist and traditionalist Bapists, Presbyterians, etc.
Modernist Catholics: Your run of the mill, ordinary Catholic who accept the reforms of the Second Vatican Council and have no problem with the "Novus Ordo".
Traditionalists (such as members of the SSPX, or the Society of Saint Pius X) reject the modern mass, and often the second vatican council and the authority of the Pope. They insist that all Catholic churches go back to the latin Tridentine Mass, and will often use the term "spirit of vatican 2" as a pejorative (often thinking that the RCC is too soft on non-Catholic by saying that some might actully get into Heaven *gasp*), and some even consider the office of the holy see vacant since the 1960's. Mel Gibson is a traditionalist Catholic.
Look at wikipedia for some more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholics
For some traditionalist blogs, go here:
http://t.webring.com/hub?ring=leagueofeviltrad
Both Anons,
Anonymous said...
First of all I don't like your comments about where my priorities lie, you don't know me, second, you don't know how many times I've posted here, why don't you post on other topics more yourself, put your money where your mouth is.
You show them by what you post. I post where I want to - I am practicing what I preach.
Second, I'm not practicing the art of avoidance, I think its useless to bring up the same topics over and over, you believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, the Catholic church has been around for thousands of years, so it can stand the test of time, not confusing cause with effort.
Now you inject relativism into the mix....
11:16 AM
Anonymous said...
To the people arguing back and forth, its senseless, Catholics and Non-Catholics will never see eye to eye on anything, so why don't you guys give it a rest.
I have seen eye to eye with PBall (and other catholics) many times on this and other Blogs.
I post where I want to also, I have responded to a lot of posts here, but the ones that get the most responses are ones like this.
I feel that if more people responded to other things posted here it would make for a much more interesting discussion, one person can't do it.
I post where I want to also, I have responded to a lot of posts here, but the ones that get the most responses are ones like this.
So are you making an observation or stating a complaint?
I feel that if more people responded to other things posted here it would make for a much more interesting discussion, one person can't do it.
What are you talking about. I cannot find you posting on any other posting in this blog on any other subject. Go there and get the discussion going. I scan through the number of replies and this on has 32 (and as soon as I send this 33) but the rest for the most part are 0.
How do you know that I'm not posting on other blogs, I am and have been,how can you make such assumptions when you're not responding to any yourself. I only have so much time during the day and can only respond to so many, thats why I'm saying that more people need to respond, not just a handful.
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