The Big Dip Debate
Last week we talked about if it is necessary to be baptized to be saved. If you missed the show you are going to be in the dark a bit because I can not cover what was said over the 3 hours. To whittle it down.... Marty believes while baptism is an important display of obedience, it is not needed for salvation. I would tend to disagree. The water is symbolic but we are told to repent and be baptized. Jesus was baptized and if it's good enough for him.... You get my point. It is the spirit that baptizes you. Many have this idea of "magic water" that cleanses you. I would say the water represents the spirit that we can not see. This was a hot topic for many of you so I'm going to share some of the email that was sent in the comments section. Feel free to post your own thoughts.
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14 comments:
Marty's dichotomy between matter and spirit is a gnostic heresy. Do youforget Jesus became matter and matter is good to God? I think youwould find the book, "Against The Protestant Gnostics" by Philip J.Lee a good read. (Philip is a Protestant too)Saying Jesus said nothing about baptism shows your bias in biblical interpretation. Ever read Matt 28:18? Marty read what Paul said in Romans 16:17 and then show me your beliefs in writing before the 16th century.
-Vincent
Please read Acts 2:37-38. They asked what shall we do. The
reply is in Acts 2:38 which was: "repent and be baptized". That is what
needed to be done to be saved. It is clear then, that repentance and
baptism are necessary for salvation and not just faith.
The context of Ephesians is talking about people who are doing "good
things" or following some "rituals" and thinking they can get into
Heaven. Obviously that isn't they way, however Baptism is a command
(even Jesus was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness"). It is not a
something we are doing it is done TO us by God. Therefore, the passage
in Ephesians does not apply.
In light of your belief of faith only, how would you explain James
2:14-26? Just to quote 2 versus:
v 14: "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith
but does not have works? Can faith save him?" says you must have works
or there is no faith.
v 26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without
works is dead also." says faith without works is dead.
I'm not saying that works gets you into heaven, however, works carries
out obedience. Are you saying you don't have to be obedient to be
saved? Baptism is part of this obedience along with repentance (Acts 2:38)
Anyone who says salvation is jesus plus anything needs
to read john 14:6.
guess those who believe Baptism is necessary to join the kingdom of God DO NOT believe that terminally ill people who receive Jesus on their death bed will be forgiven for their sins? If they do not have the ability to be baptized prior to death I know God would not send them to hell. What about prison inmates who find the lord? It is ludicrous for people to be so simple minded in regards to this. They need to get their heads out of the sand. What if you were stranded in the desert and you developed a relationship with God. You repented and asked for your sins to be forgiven. Not much water in the desert these days! My uncle passed away with terminal cancer a few months ago. He developed a personal relationship with the lord during this period. He was a different man. He could see death coming and life afterwards. He gained peace with God and was saved before he passed away. I know he was forgiven. I know I will see him in the kingdom of Heaven. I also know that he was not baptized... Was the thief on the cross next to Jesus baptized? Jesus said you will join me in paradise... Father, forgive these people who take your words and make them their own... May they see the light one day.
The proof is in 1 Peter 3:21 "...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also- not the removalof dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God."
The key here is that water symbolizes baptism, thus baptism is the cleansing of one's consceince, consciously, toward God. The symbol and the reality are so closely related that the symbol is sometimes used to refer to the reality which is the pledge that the believer is making. Baptism through water is only a visible gesture as witnessed by those present during the ritual.
Ok here is my two cents..
A person cannot enter into the Kingdom of God without being baptized in some form. Scripture does not exclude infants or children. Therefore, some non-Catholic Christian denominations who only baptize adults, put children and infants at risk. The risk may be limbo. Although it is not an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, limbo is said to be reserved for unbaptized infants. It is a place of happiness, but without the great joy of being with God Himself.
Rob: You are missing a key point. Christ had not yet died on the cross when he spoke to the thief. Therefore the covenant had not taken place yet. Baptisim is the essential part of the plan for salvation AFTER Christ died. It is not baptisim that saves you but your obedience to his word and command.
Limbo Shimbo! Where does this garbage come from? I suppose if the Pope came out with a new doctrine that said a person has to put a slice of balogney in each shoe and swing a chicken over his head,(a flounder on Fridays), to be saved, then stock in Oscar Myer and Purdue would be on rise.(especially in Pittsburgh)."Rob" is the only one so far that understands.
Louie: While your example of exciting new uses for food is entertaining, it also goes against the word of God. There is but one infaliable source to answer these questions and so far the Pope has said nothing about chickens and salvation.
After all, Popes are always coming up with new "inventions": you know, the Bible, the concept of the Trinity, the Divinity of Christ.
Crazy Catholics!
The real question is: what is baptism. Is it for the remission of orignal sin, as the Church and also Lutherans teach? Or is it just a symbol, a Protestant invention 1500 years after the fact?
dennis said, "It is ludicrous for people to be so simple minded in regards to this."
Dennis, you're right: there is nuance; but you're on the wrong side of the arguement.
We cannot enter Heaven and retain original sin. Baptism is the ordinary means through which God remits our original sin, in accordance with the merits of Christ.
Obviously there can be extraordinary circumstances - the thief on the cross, etc, where physical baptism is not necessary or possible. However, Orthodoxy allows for "Baptism by desire" for folks who can't quite get to the font.
Grace is necessary to get to Heaven, and God gives his Grace through baptism. So in that sense it is necessary.
I love all the comments on this. Keep them coming!
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