I always here people say "You Catholics should not have all those statues, it's idolitry". Well, this made me chuckle a bit....
At age 87, Rev. Billy Graham can no longer stride to the pulpit and must use a walker to get around. But a bronze statue to be unveiled by the Southern Baptist Convention will recall the evangelist in his prime.
Sculpted by Rev. Terrell O'Brien of Wyoming, the figure of Graham will stand larger than life with a Bible in one hand and arms outstretched before a giant cross. The statue will be presented in June at the Southern Baptists' annual meeting in Greensboro, North Carolina, before being permanently installed at the denomination's headquarters in Nashville.
Graham did not sit for the statue, so O'Brien used photographs to sculpt and mold the piece. When finished, the statue of Graham will be more than nine feet tall while the cross will be 17 feet. At the foot of the cross is a stone inscribed with John 3:16 and three nails.
34 comments:
If people start to worship it, I'll concede your point.
Why would they build a statue of Billy Graham and accuse Catholics of worshipping idols? Aren't they doing the same thing?????
Again, if the purpose of the statue is to worship it or pray to it, I shall concede your point.
Catholics don't worship statues or pray to them, so who is the last laugh on now? Can we accuse Billy Graham followers to be idol worshipers?
Catholics don't worship statues or pray to them
Never said you did.
Can we accuse Billy Graham followers to be idol worshipers?
Accuse them of being blue-butted baboons for all I care.
The fact is that building a statue isn't idolatry if you don't pray to it or worship it.
Did the Baptist Church commision the statue in an official fashion to adorn a Church building?
We can't make a blanket statement. We don't know what is all entailed behind this statue.
When he dies no non-catholic will pray to him for help ... they'll keep praying to the God that answers prayer.
Further more, we won't pray to the person who the statue represents.
Catholics don't pray to the person who the statue represents, we ask that person (who is among the saints in heaven) to pray for us to Jesus. Same thing as asking someone here on earth to pray for you, only this person is a wee bit closer to Jesus.
I've found that varies among Catholics by the admissions of their own mouths (the mom of a friend of mine told me she prayed to St. Jude to have a child), but I understand that what you say is how it is supposed to be. But I still don't see how that makes having a statue of Billy Graham idolatry.
Catholics don't pray to the person who the statue represents, we ask that person (who is among the saints in heaven) to pray for us to Jesus. Same thing as asking someone here on earth to pray for you, only this person is a wee bit closer to Jesus.
So how does one speak with those who are not? That those who have passed on?
Why do I see countless littel thankyous in the newspaper to St. Jude for what he's done, when I have yet to see ONE that thanks God for what he's done.
this person is a wee bit closer to Jesus.
Having been given the Spirit of God living inside the believer, there is no one more close to the Lord than the true believer.
Jesus did say (to His Father), "I in them and they in Me and Me in You and You in them." and to Mary "I go to my God and your God and my Father and your Father."
This notion of proximity to the Lord is a gross error.
To the person who asked the question why do they see thank yous to St. Jude and not Jesus, I think the folks are thanking St. Jude for interceding for them in their time of need.
Yes. If one dies a believer, the Catholic faith teaches us that person is given eternal life and is therefore still a member of the church. A relationship does not end at the point of physical death. Those that have departed in the friendship of the Lord are able to pray for us and intercede.
To the person who asked the question why do they see thank yous to St. Jude and not Jesus, I think the folks are thanking St. Jude for interceding for them in their time of need.
What assurance do they have the St. Jude heard them and did anything for them?
I assume St. Jude still has the free-will he had before he became the dearly departed ...
Reality check:
St. Jude was a man (100% man, 0% God) - how could he even possibly attempt to handle the backlog?!
Christ on the other hand is 100% man and 100% God.
I know where my prayers are headed...
Why ask a friend on earth to pray for you then, we are 100% man also.
The Bible says saints can and do intercede for us read Eph. 6:18 and Mk 12: 26-27
Regarding the question asking Saints to intercede for us, please read Rev. 4; 10, 5:8, 6: 9-11, shows saints worshipping God.
the Communion of Saints are alive in Christ.
Eph. 6:18 - Out of context interpetation. Paul is asking for the Ephesians to pray FOR him and the other Saints.
Mk 12:26-27 - Extrapolation. Christ is speaking of the dead rising and being alive in God. Nothing about intercesory prayer.
Rev 4:10 - Living creatures worshiping. Nothing about intercesory prayer.
Rev 5:8 - Assumes that the Saints John is speaking of are dead and praying intercesory prayer, rather than the context that Paul uses in Eph. 6:18, in which the Saints are still alive and working for the Kingdom here on earth (as a Baptist, I believe all who are saved are Saints, just FYI).
Rev 6:9-11 - John talks about the martyrs, not intercesory prayer for the saints.
On a side note, I was in a pizza place in Robinson yesterday when a waitress gave a guy who had back pain something (I didn't see what it was). She said it was "from the Blessed Mother" and he should "pray to St. Jude for healing." Her words exactly. Was she in error? Should she have been telling him to be asking St. Jude to pray for him? Just wondering.
NH beat me to it ...
When reading Scripture one must be very careful about substituting spirtual death for physical death and vice versa.
Well,how would you interpret this scripture, Rev. 8: 34 and the smoke of incense went up with the prayers of the saints, I take it to mean that the saints can and do pray for us.
I inturpret it as "Saints pray," Saints being those who are alive here on earth and saved.
This conversation can go on and on and we'll get no where, obviously we're interpreting scripture differently. I don't think anyone is going to be condemned to hell for asking a saint to intercede for them any more than someone here on earth asking a friend to intercede for them.
We'll all have the last laugh when we meet in heaven someday.
I don't think anyone is going to be condemned to hell for asking a saint to intercede for them any more than someone here on earth asking a friend to intercede for them.
To be honest, neither do I, as long as they place their faith in Christ.
We'll all have the last laugh when we meet in heaven someday.
HA!!! This is how I usually end a "I guess we just have to agree to disagree" type discussion too! Excellent!!!
I agree anon. the core of the matter is that we all believe that Jesus died so that our sins would be forgiven and we all place our faith in Christ, so I love you my fellow Christian, and I'll pray for you.
"Well,how would you interpret this scripture, Rev. 8: 34 and the smoke of incense went up with the prayers of the saints, I take it to mean that the saints can and do pray for us."
Rev 8:3-4 do NOT give any other detail than that what rose to God had the prayers of Saints in it. It doesn't tell us whether these were living Saints, dead Saints, New Testament Saints or Old Testament Saints.
To come to your conclusion you have to insert meaning. This is the point where we depart from one another. We cannot insert meaning - we must only extract meaning. To do this we can only rely on the Spirit of God to show us:
He leads into all truth
Teaches all things
Brings all things to our remembrance.
Anything less is a man-made (acedemic) look at a spritual matter - and God plainly says that the natural cannot comprehend the things of God BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.
To understand God's Book for God's People requires God's Spirit.
The Communion of Saints are alive in Christ, did you ever read in scripture that the dead saints are praying for us here on earth.
"The Communion of Saints are alive in Christ, did you ever read in scripture that the dead saints are praying for us here on earth."
Yes the Saints are alive in Christ - but what makes you think they are still linked with this world?
They are alive SPIRITUALLY - but their dead bodies still lie in rest! They await the ressurection. Read 1 Thess 4. If they weren't still dead, why would Paul refer to them being raised and those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN being caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air?
I'm not saying anything about suol sleep here. I know nothing of the sort. The soul that passes from this life, in Christ, awaits resurrection of the body in 'paradise' with Christ. The repentant, confessing theif is still waiting for his body to 'join' him (in incorruption for we shall ALL be changed).
They are disconnected from this present world - the OT says that "the dead know nothing". That is they have passed on. What makes you think that there is any connection from eternity to time? Look at the story Christ told of Lazarus and the rich man. There is only memory - there is no active participation.
PS: the connotation of death in Scripture is separation - whether physical or spiritual. To us the Saints are dead - separated - we shall join them soon.
How was the Rich man able to speak to Lazarus then?
also, please read Mt 17:3; Mk 9:4; Lk 9:30 that mention that the saints can hear our prayers.
Sorry to keep beating this dead horse, but when I read those passages, I see NOTHING about dead saints hearing our prayers. I see that Moses and Elija appearing with Christ.
When the NT talks of saints, I read it as talking of the current living saved Christians. Are you reading "prayers of the saints" as the Roman Catholic canonized saints? Just wondering.
"How was the Rich man able to speak to Lazarus then?"
He didn't. So I'd suggest a re-read of Luke chapter 16. The rich man cried out to Abraham. BOTH were in the spirit world. There is no communication between the spirit world and the physical world in this passage. Notice the request that Lazarus would be sent back to the rich man's family is denied - so is the request to send Lazarus to hell to cool his tongue.
Mt 17:3, Mk 9:4 & Lk 9:30 - This isn't a prayer issue - Moses and Elias were talking with Christ NOT James, John and Peter (in ALL 3 3 references). Again, a re-read is in order (how could you miss such a poignant detail?). Since Christ IS God - He unveiled His glory. Christ IS the culmination of the law and the prophets as represented by Moses and Elias - notice after Peter blunders and offers to build 3 altars they see Jesus only. He is preeminent. These passages are not prayer passages. These are Christ first principle passages.
No, I'm not reading prayers of canonized saints I'm reading the Bible, check out this passage Rev. 5: 8 re. saints and prayer. Also Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6: 9-4.
I interpret these scripture passages as saints hearing our prayers.
This is in regard to the ongoing debate about the saints and prayers, what about Mt. 17: 3; MK 9:4; Lk. 9:30. God is not the God the the dead saints but of the living saints.
Lets put this subject to rest and respond to some of the other blogs.
We'll put it to rest when you can show that Mt. 17: 3; MK 9:4; Lk. 9:30 actually does support your view. You keep stating it - but NOWHERE in the passages do Moses and Elias interact with James, John or Peter. There's NO indication that J, J or P understood the conversation or even heard what was said. It only says that they SAW M & E talking with Jesus. P then says to Jesus, AFTER M & E depart (this detail only found in the original language in Luke 9), that they should make 3 booths (altars)... there is absolutely NO warrant for what you believe from these passages.
If you believe to be correct, then either show it FROM the passage. Statements of fact with no proof don't hold much weight.
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