Dear Powerball:
A Lutheran friend says that Jesus died "once for all" for our sins, past, present, and future. He paid the price "fully" and offers us complete forgiveness. Not temporary forgiveness. The barrier of sin is gone forever. He declares us not guilty. Jesus took the punishment for our sins and we are made right with God when we believe that Jesus sacrificed his life for us. We still sin, but our sin is no longer a barrier between us and God. We are assured of our salvation, our eternal life. We don't need to do anything more, except believe it. Jesus did it all for us.
I have always thought Jesus died to forgive my sins and to "open the gates of heaven" for me. But I have to keep saying sorry to God for my sins. I can lose my salvation. I have to make reparations for my sins. Do penance. If Jesus died for my sins, and suffered and "took the punishment" for my sins, why do I have to keep making reparations for my sins. My Lutheran friend says that I am undermining the suffering that Jesus has done for me. He cites Romans 6:23, 3:23,24, John 1:12, Patricia
Powerball: I will answer it first by an example and second by Scripture.
1) Salvation is a free gift from God. One must remember a gift can always denied. What your Protestant friend does not understand is when he sins in reality he is refusing Christ and His sacrifice upon the cross.He has fallen into the sin of presumption. Presumption is pride that leads one to expect salvation no matter was state in life one finds themselves in.
2)Scripture is very clear that one must confess sin.
"Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed" (John 5:16)
Jesus gave the power to forgive sin to the apostles when he breathed upon them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained" ( John 20:22-23)
Scripture is also clear one can lose their salvation.
“For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.” (2 peter 20-21)
“Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor 10: 11)
The one Scripture verse Protestants never seem to find in the Bible is ( 1 Cor 4:4-5). It destroys their idea of proclaiming themselves saved.
“ I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.”( 1 Cor 4:4-5)
13 comments:
"The one Scripture verse Protestants never seem to find in the Bible is ( 1 Cor 4:4-5). It destroys their idea of proclaiming themselves saved."
Look again at the passage. The context is NOT salvation. The context is performance of the office Paul found himself in. He was appealing to a higher authority for his review then others around or even himself.
This passage has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with salvation.
Again, what is happening here is the belief that one can lose thier salvation is brought TO the text. To read the text objectively, one CANNOT come to this conclusion for the subject of the text IS NOT salvation.
The one Scripture verse Protestants never seem to find in the Bible is ( 1 Cor 4:4-5). It destroys their idea of proclaiming themselves saved.
That is one of the many verses Catholics love to pull out of context to support their unbiblical positions (sorry, just thought I would match your tone). The key to this verse is "At that time each will receive his praise from God." Reference to 1 Cor 3:13-15 on the "judgement" of believers works, to see what carries over into heaven.
Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor 10: 11)
I think you meant 1 Cor 10:12. Another out of context verse. That verse is about tempation, not salvation. As Christians, we are to strive not to sin, but not because our salvation is in question.
2 Peter 2:20-21
Yet another verse out of context. This is NOT talking about the saved, but the false teachers who try to lead weak people astray. They know the way, but have never chosen to follow it. They have not repented of their sins and put their faith in Christ.
John 5:16
That is confess one's faults, not sins.
John 20:23
From Tenney (Expositors' Commentary), '81: "The commission to forgive sins is phrased in an unusual construction. Literally it is, 'Those whose sins you forgive HAVE ALREADY been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive HAVE NOT been forgiven'...the second verbs are perfects, which imply an ABIDING STATE that began BEFORE the action of the first verbs."
Since they have the Holy Spirit, they will know if sins are forgiven or not, and are just proclaiming them. It doesn't say anything about confessing sins to the apostles.
1 John 1:9 contradicts the Catholic Church's "interpetation" of this verse.
The saved, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, will be spared from hell. The bible is clear that our judgement will be of our works to see what carries over into eternity. Those who are saved but do things with the wrong motivation will enter heaven but only as one escaping through the flames.
What about St Peter's comment...aren't touching that one are you? Is HE talking about salvation?
Um... I addressed every verse, including that one.
Peter is talking about False Teachers.
2 Peter 2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.
[the subject is set as false teachers]
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
[notice the comparative language - not the absolute language]
What is dealt with here is the apostacy of these ones. They call themselves Christians and associate with Christians; but are not - by their fruits they would be known. Read the chapter and see if those things there characterize one who has truly accepted Christ or not. The answer is clear.
The subject is NOT salvation or the undoing of salvation.
What verses deal w/ salvation then. (Leaving the bible references w/out the text of the verse will be fine.)
What specifically do you want to see regarding salvation?
Scripture contains much about the redemptive work of the Triune God towards His rebellious creature - ask specifically.
I would like to see all the verses from the NT that you feel are referring to salvation.
You do not have to post the text of the verse, just the reference and what translation you are using. So I can use the same.
Also, do you feel scripture verses have no other meanings, aside from the literal meaning of the text when written?
"I would like to see all the verses from the NT that you feel are referring to salvation."
You've got to be kidding! What specifically regarding salvation do you want to see from the Scriptures? If you are driving at some other point - then open up and state it plainly.
"You do not have to post the text of the verse, just the reference and what translation you are using. So I can use the same."
Again, being specific will provide some basis for me to start.
"Also, do you feel scripture verses have no other meanings, aside from the literal meaning of the text when written?"
No. I am not a literal-only type (so to speak). The Scriptures weren't written 100% literal. There is a ton of very 'fancy' and complicated uses of language in the Scriptures. We lose a lot fo the meaning if we don't understand context - cultural, historical, and literal. Knowing the original languages (and their uses) is extremely helpful in rightly dividing the Word of Truth. It takes study - just as Paul instructed Timothy.
I'm willing to help you out but you got to give specifics - a volume of references isn't going to help - then there's no room for discussion of the context.
John 3:3
John 3:16
Romans 3:23
Romans 5:8
Acts 17:30
Acts 16:30-31
Acts 3:19
John 1:12
Romans 10:13
...just to name a few. ;)
Powerball posts verses and you claim they are not referring to salavation.
So please post the verses that are referring to man's eternal salvation.
So if a verse can have more meaning than the literal, why can't Powerball's references?
It is all about context. You have to read the verses before it and after it to see what it is talking about.
I mean, if we want to pull verses out and make them mean what we want to, one could say that Mark 7:18 proves that Jesus approved of homosexual male sex!
So if a verse can have more meaning than the literal, why can't Powerball's references?
So are you saying that God purposefully made the Bible impossible for people to understand and that He is the author of confusion?
Again! Read the verses IN CONTEXT!!!
NH makes the valid point - context. Sometimes the context is literal other times it is established figuratively.
You can't take the words out by themselves for then you can make the text say what you want it to.
Take for instance 1 Corinthians 10:
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Take the literal and compare with what is obviously a figurative narrative.
Was the whole nation baptized in a cloud and in the sea into Moses? Literally this means nothing - figuratively we see the spiritual parallels of God's dealing with Israel and how He deals with us today - His government is the same.
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