I've been thumped! It's not the first or the last time, but a caller took me to task for my "unbiblical practice of speaking to the dead".
When I asked the lady if she know why I did so, she blurted "because you don't know the Bible".
I can't really get into some deep theological debate when I'm producing a talk show, so I thought I would adress the subject right here.
People ask people to "pray for me" all the time. Why not ask the Virgin Mary or any other saint to "pray for you?" Just because they are no longer "of this world" does not mean they don't "talk" to God.
The saints in heaven are not "separated" by death from the community of the Church (Romans 8:38-39) as we are ALL one Body in Christ (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:12) and Christ "abolished death" (2 Timothy 1:10). Therefore, the saints in Heaven can pray for us just as anyone here on Earth can. In fact, better, as they are presently with God.
The Virgin Mary asking God to help you should "carry more weight" so to speak than having your best friend on this earth praying for you. In fact, Christ's first public miracle was performed upon the "intercession" of His own mother (John 2:2-11).
In regards to the use of the relics of the saints, this is deeply rooted in Scripture (Acts 19:11-12).
In modern translations of Holy Scripture, St. Paul asks us to imitate him as he imitates Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). Are we not to imitate all of the saints in their holiness?
Below is a prayer to St. Joseph that dates back to 50 A.D. - long before the last Apostle had died and less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If the early Christians asked the "dead" foster father of Christ to intercede for them and it was "wrong," why is there no "documentation" from the Twelve Apostles "reprimanding" them for this? Surely, the Apostles would have corrected the early Church had It been in err.
PRAYER TO ST. JOSEPH (50 A.D.)
O St. Joseph whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the Throne of God, I place in you all my interests and desires.
O St. Joseph do assist me by your powerful intercession and obtain for me from your Divine Son all spiritual blessings through Jesus Christ, Our Lord; so that having engaged here below your Heavenly power I may offer my Thanksgiving and Homage to the most Loving of Fathers.
O St. Joseph I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms. I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart. Press him in my name and kiss His fine Head for me, and ask Him to return the Kiss when I draw my dying breath. St. Joseph, Patron of departing souls, pray for us. Amen.
4 comments:
Gee, if she feels so strongly about it, maybe she shouldn't do it. ;)
I don't believe praying to saints avails anything, as I believe that God hears my prayers as much as He hears anyone else's. There ends my belief.
If other people want to pray to saints, whatever. It doesn't affect me in any way, so it isn't my place to "Thump".
I've been "Thumped" over many things in the past too, Powerball, so I know what you mean. Just remind them to get that plank out of their own eye first. ;)
Romans 8:38-39 - neither states nor implies what you have written.
Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ. This has nothing to do with the dead and the living being separated or not.
Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:12 - we are One Body, One Church.
2 Timothy 1:10 - He abolished death in that He conquored over it. Now death has no power over the believer - for to die physically is to 'sleep in Jesus'. No fear of dying for those in Christ - no sense of losing our Living Hope. You need to quote the rest fo the passages that deal with this subject. What you propose is that Christ 'removed' death - which at last check of the obiturary section of the PG isn't the case.
"Therefore, the saints in Heaven can pray for us just as anyone here on Earth can. In fact, better, as they are presently with God."
With a belief in Purgatory (P) - I'm not sure how you can make the case; how can you know when they've 'made it across'? Aren't some Popes still thought to be there? What's the criteria for passing from P to H and what's the mode of kowing who's done it? Plus, P isn't supported in the Scriptures.
John 2:2-11 - Mary requests of the Lord a miracle - He sets her straight regarding His Divine purpose. Even then Mary was asking out of the will of God. What makes the difference is that she turns around to the people and acknowledges just Who her son really is. It wasn't Mary that got the wine made - it was God. She, like us, MUST acknowledge God FIRST. This passage doesn't support Mary as a intercessor any more than it supports some reckless use of substance. The passage gives the conclusion by stating, "He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.". To point this passage at Mary as the focal point is to deny Christ.
Acts 19:11-12 - I won't deny the power of God; but it isn't a normative thing what is described. I would say if the focus was on the relic and not on God (and the lines are blurry) then what is exhibited is idolatry - and forbidden by God.
"Are we not to imitate all of the saints in their holiness?"
We are called to follow their faith NOT their actions. Make sure you follow the faith...
As for PRAYER TO ST. JOSEPH (50 A.D.) - just because it was done back then doesn't automatically make it correct or right. That being said - please provide the manuscript evidence to support even the legitimacy of the text. Where can we find the manuscript evidence?
As for evidence to the Apostles corecting it - I'm sure there isn't any. There is a lot that wasn't in the writings that got corrected. Many extraneous writings and personal visits are referred to in the Apostle's letters. Who knows what they might have done. Given the context of the whole of Scripture the 'bent' is that those who pass from this scene do not retain any connection.
Also - the Lord taught his disciples to pray and we have many prayers recorded in Scripture. Are any of them to dead or departed saints?
What was the outcome of the calling back of the spirit of the prophet in the OT?
All these help in determining if we should be directing prayers to the dead - or is it that we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
I'd rather count on God...
Thomas:
I know you want to rely on your own understanding of Scripture but I trust the church and thier 2000 years of teaching.
I would disagree on many of your points but I could not begin to adress then all here.
I do not support sola scriptura. That would explain our differing views on the subject.
"I know you want to rely on your own understanding of Scripture but I trust the church and thier 2000 years of teaching."
I am not relying on my own interpretation of Scripture. I'll say it again - Scripture is to be obeyed not interpreted. The Holy Spirit is quite capable (as GOD) to teach the believer in ALL things.
Putting one's faith in the Church will not do - one must place ALL faith in God for ALL things.
"I do not support sola scriptura."
Neither do I - or at least in the way you view it.
"That would explain our differing views on the subject."
I'm not convinced it would do enough to explain our differences.
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