I've been thinking about one of our show callers. We were talking about unity and he said as long as a person believes in Jesus then it does not matter what denomination you choose. I don't want another I'm right, you're wrong debate, but I do want to pose a question to all of you.
At what point does one become a Christian? Is it when you accept Christ, or do you have to spend some time learning and understanding Scripture? Is it instant or is it a process? The same question could be asked about salvation.
Could it be when you are baptized, even though often young children are often baptized? Are we to just self-declare ourselves "Christians" because we say some prayer?
There are many "Christians" who agree on very little with other "Christians". So what makes a Christian a Christian? I'd like to hear (read) your thoughts.
21 comments:
I believe a person is a Christian when they believe that Christ was the son of God who died for our sins, and believe that God exists as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I believe salvation takes place when a decision to follow Christ with life changing faith is made (as opposed to the casual "belief" that some people have), you repent of your sins, and by doing so you accept the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For me, I became a Christian back in college. I was raised Lutheran and went to church every Sunday. I didn't take my faith seriously, and I thought church was a waste of time, it being something my parents did to fit into a social group. In spite of being raised in the church, I still was not a Christian. When I went to college, I became an agnostic. In my foolish pride, God had to break me, and break me He did. Fortunately, God put Sam Brunsvold (http://gohoosiers.org/brunsvold/index.htm) in my life. He is the man who led me to Christ, God rest his soul.
Kybosh,
Are you saying a person could be a Christian and not be saved?
Yeah, I guess I did word that incredibly badly.
I should have said a "group" is considered a Christian group if they believe that Christ is the son of God who died for our sins, and believe that God exists as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
A person is a Christian when they are "saved," as I stated above.
"You shall know them by their fruits."
We were talking about unity and he said as long as a person believes in Jesus then it does not matter what denomination you choose.
The Church of your choice movement is based in falsehood. It is unscriptural. You go where the Spirit of God leadss you to go. You should desire to be found where Christ is upheld as the only Savior of sinners and He alone is worshipped. There's obviously more to it - you'd want to be careful of false teaching and 'leaven' but that's a whole of day's discussion. God won't let the worshipper of Him (in spirit and truth) down.
At what point does one become a Christian?
When one is 'of' Christ. That is they posess His nature as given by God and produces fruit as a result of the new life given. This is what FD is referring to. God has given us great pictures in marriage and the family ot illustrate how it 'works' between us and Him. When did our kids become ours? When they received 'our life' or when the gift of sonship (generally) was bestowed. They now exhibit the family traits - some to our embarassment, some to our approval. And those who have been given sonship (adoption) possess 100% rights to the family stuff. God has us born new (water and Spirit) and has bestowed on us the right to be called the sons of God because we ARE the sons of God.
Is it when you accept Christ, or do you have to spend some time learning and understanding Scripture?
I don't believe so. Paul referred to those who needed milk and those who needed meat. There is differing degrees of maturity. My son (9 wks old) is no less a human than my grandfather was @ 99 yrs of age.
Is it instant or is it a process?
Salvation is instant, sanctification is a process.
Could it be when you are baptized, even though often young children are often baptized?
No, baptism does nothing for salvation it is merely the outward show of what is the reality inside -- that new life given by God. Jesus refers to this when talking with Nicodemas. He says you must be born again -- entirely afresh; that is a new life source, a new life destination a completely new point of departure. Paul says we die and are raised in Christ.
Are we to just self-declare ourselves "Christians" because we say some prayer?
No. God knows the heart. Two can say the same words and one can walk away justified freely by His grace.
So what makes a Christian a Christian?
Couldn't this be asked as WHO makes a Christian a Christian? Christ. He is the only 'ingredient'.
As to agreement; ALL Christians will agree on Christ - they must for they are united by one body and one Spirit ... one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Thanks for all the great comments. Every answer seems to spark more questions.
SPROCKET summed up my whole point when he say "Two can say the same words and one can walk away justified freely by His grace."
Which is which? If two sound, look and act the same, yet doubt the other is a true Christian, it's a stalemate and only God knows the answer.
Yet we as Christians are so quick to call the other one wrong.
Two can say the same words and one can walk away justified freely by His grace.
Which is which? If two sound, look and act the same, yet doubt the other is a true Christian, it's a stalemate and only God knows the answer.
Stalemate? Yes and No.
The justified one WILL produce fruit for God - he has to; the essence of his 'tree' is changed. The other will only serve himself - his 'tree' is not changed. But the point has been made that the 'works' are the same - this is a great point. Man looks on the outward appearance, God looks on the heart.
Let's say these two people help seniors across the street. The one does it for the glory of God, the other does it for some response to his own glory.
Having said that, those in Christ can walk 'after the flesh' (as Paul puts it) if they choose to do things for thier own glory. This makes them elligible for the government of God - He rules his household well.
The unbeleiver (the other one) is condemned already and will eventually receive the judgment of God if he continues in his current state.
Now there is a verse that does answer directly to your statement of stalemate - 2 Timothy 2:19
'The Lord hath known those who are His,' AND
'Let him depart from unrighteousness -- every one who is naming the name of Christ.'
There's a duality to this truth. The Lrod does know who are real, and those who name the name of Christ should flee that which doesn't portray Christ.
So I don't need to worry who else is saved - the Lord knows.
But can I say I am saved if I don't actively flee evil / sin / iniquity / wickedness? Searching. It's the reality test.
Clarification: This 'actively flee' doesn't include a falling or stumbling - it's more the sense of habitual sin. If I can sin and have no sense that I am wronging GOD (nevermind myself or others at this point - though that is important too) - then am I real? For myself I would say 'No!', but then the verse I quoted says the Lord really knows who are his.
When are we saved? The very instant we believe on and trust in Christ.
Mark,
That answer would depend on who you ask. I personally believe that one does not really know if they are saved until they die.
Otherwise, we are making a self declaration of salvation. I know Christ paid the price for me, I know that his Word promises that I am saved, I know Christ is not a lier, but I also know that I will be judged and there is only one who can say that I am saved.
Others claim "instant" salvation through acceptance of Christ and assurance of salvation that can never be lost. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembeling. That to me rejects the individual notion of instant and assured.
We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembeling.
For me, that means to fully understand the implications of your decision, and to fully understand what it is that is required for salvation.
Far too many people in Protestant denominations think that simply believing in Christ is enough to save them, then go on and live their lives as they always have without life-changing faith. Far too many Catholics believe that by being a good person you can earn your way into heaven, in spite of the Catholic Church's teachings.
We have to understand what believing on and trusting in Christ truly means, otherwise all our efforts are useless. Once we understand, we make a decision. At that instant, we are saved, and as Christ himself said in John 10:28-30, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
Why with fear and trembling? Because eternity is on the line.
Excellent question, Powerball.
Otherwise, we are making a self declaration of salvation. I know Christ paid the price for me, I know that his Word promises that I am saved, I know Christ is not a lier, but I also know that I will be judged and there is only one who can say that I am saved.
'I know Christ paid the price for me' AND 'but I also know that I will be judged ...' is to confuse the nature of the judgment(s). The sinner is referred to in the Word of GOd as being condemned -nowhere is the child of God ever referred to this way.
Most of us have(or were children) ... to be disciplined reinforces the standing the child has with his parent. I don't discipline the neighbor's kid - he's not mine. If I were the judge of PGH I might have to condemn that child in a court of law. Sinners are condemned, children are disciplined.
I know that his Word promises that I am saved, I know Christ is not a lier...
Then you have to accept the following:
Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1 John 5:6
... it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 3:19
And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:13
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
It is plain from Scripture we DO KNOW that we CAN HAVE eternal life. It is also plain that we DO KNOW WHEN we HAVE eternal life.
"Fortunately, God put Sam Brunsvold (http://gohoosiers.org/brunsvold/index.htm) in my life. He is the man who led me to Christ, God rest his soul."
Were you ever in CSF? I was an off-and-on member from 95-97. Sam was an interesting guy.
Yes, from '91 - '93. Met my wife there.
"That answer would depend on who you ask. I personally believe that one does not really know if they are saved until they die."
~Actually I get that answer from Scripture and the many times so-and-so "believed and was saved" is mentioned. I know that I know that I will stand in Heaven someday because Christ said so. When Scripture says "saved", that means saved. The Scripture supporting salvation assurance is much more abundant thatn that which leaves room for doubt.
Even the phrase "assurance of salvation" must be thrown out if there really is no assurance of salvation. This is where I think we can begin to look logically at a situation and ask; why would God leave us wondering for our entire life? What security is there in "maybe"?
Our sins have been paid for at the cross. "It is finished." Our part is to take hold of that which has been given.
"He who has the Son, HAS life."
Great post ~Mark!
It is no presumption to rest on a God who is omniscient, onmipresent, omnipotent and unchanging!
This is where we get into interpretation of Scripture. In a sense, the Bible does guarantee salvation to those who want it bad enough, but on certain conditions. It is not as simple as only believing in and proclaiming Jesus as the Savior.
Matthew 7:21 says:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
From this we can gather that not only are we to call on the Lord, but we must also do what the Lord wants (doing his will).
Faith alone is not enough. For faith without works is dead ( James 2:24, 26) and Jesus said that he will know people by their fruits (Mt. 7:20) and not just their tongues.
Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of garce with God will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
Many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals claim it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, no sin you can commit that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to.
Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else.
It is true that those who call upon the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:13), but the Scripture also says that we must also do the will of God; we are to love our fellow humans as God does by what we do, by our actions, by our deeds, by our works.
If we do all this, with the help of God’s grace, then we will be saved!
I may try to do a post on the subject.
Powerball,
I don't think you fully understand the Fundamentalist and Evengelical views of Salvation by Faith, just as many among our ranks don't understand the Catholic view of salvation (like the often mistaken view of "Them there Catholics are trying to earn their way into heaven").
We believe that doing His will is a result of faith and salvation. With the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, we will strive to do good works and avoid sin.
The fruits of the Spirit are an outward indicator of our salvation. You can say "Lord Lord" and not have faith, and thus not bear fruit.
I believe faith alone is enough, but it must be REAL faith, not just lip service.
Matthew 7:21 says:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
The word 'but' in the Bible shows God's alternative. Those who do the will of the Father are those in whom the Spirit in-dwells. Uttering 'Lord-Lord' doesn't cut it -- repentance and confession of sin does.
Faith alone is not enough. For faith without works is dead ( James 2:24, 26) and Jesus said that he will know people by their fruits (Mt. 7:20) and not just their tongues.
2 bits:
1 - works are the vital signs of true faith; my infant son breaths so lightly he could be mistaken for dead at times - one quick check of his vital signs and ...
2- works, specifically, are not fruit. Thoughts, intents of the heart are as well.
Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46).
Who endures to the end of what and to what purpose? Please give the context of this passage.
One who dies in the state of garce with God will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
This is true, if and only if you see that a believer in Christ has Christ's righteousness applied an not thier own. Once the righteousness of Christ is applied there is no falling from the state of grace - Christ can't so now neither can I.
Many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals claim it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life.
And this is consistently applied to the definition given by Luther. I beleive in eternal security but I also believe in the personal responsibility of the believer. I cannot sin and sin freely - God forbid that I should even think for a moment I have license to sin. Would you expect your son to think that he can do what he wants because he knows that you would never disown him as your son? If he did think that - you'd chock it up to his immaturity and you'd set about to raise him up. Spriritual maturity can be measured in the reduction of sins committed.
You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set.
Yes - because God will change your heart. The heart is the producer of behavior. No change in behavior... no change in the heart. The reverse is also just as true: no change in the heart, no change in behavior.
From that point on there is nothing you can do, no sin you can commit that will forfeit your salvation.
The Spirit of God inside me drives me to repentance when and if I do fall. He can also prevent me from falling as well.
You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to.
I cannot think of an instance or momment where the true child of God would walk away or even desire it.
Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals.
Don't confuse salvation with sanctification.
Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else.
There is a huge disconnect here. Man has consistently shown that when he is presented with a choice he chooses against God - 100% of the time.
It is true that those who call upon the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:13), but the Scripture also says that we must also do the will of God; we are to love our fellow humans as God does by what we do, by our actions, by our deeds, by our works.
Keeping the law, though right and good in desire, is impossible.
If we do all this, with the help of God’s grace, then we will be saved!
Since we do all this, we are showing God's grace that we are saved!
Please read Mt 16:27 and James 2:14 regarding faith and works.
Please read Mt 16:27 and James 2:14 regarding faith and good works.
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