Some preach that all you have to do to achieve salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, and your salvation is assured. All you have to do id make that commitment and no matter what you do, you can be certain that you will go to Heaven. They will also tell you it is an impossible to ever lose your salvation.
After much discussion and study, one finds that belief is not only not Biblical, it is in reality a sin of presumption.
Scripture teaches that one's final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
We know Adam and Eve, who received God's grace in a manner unmerited did demerit it and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a poetic charm, it does not stand up to what is in the Bible. "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26-29, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).
So with all this, can anyone really know if they are saved? Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter.
Before you start to live every moment be in terror of losing your salvation, now that you know it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin, realize you can be confident of your present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace.
Paul, writing at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future.
We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation.
As the Bible says, we are already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but we also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and we can have hope to be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15). Like the apostle Paul we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13).
13 comments:
"Scripture teaches that one's final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell."
~Very true! If we die when saved, we are of course going to Heaven. If we die unsaved, as an enemy of Christ, we will go to hell.
"Before you start to live every moment be in terror of losing your salvation, now that you know it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin, realize you can be confident of your present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace."
~How can one have any confidence if their entire salvation could apparantely be lost because moments before they died they committed some serious sin?
"Paul, writing at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future."
~That would be perfectly logical because everyone must grown in their understanding of any issue. I know things now about which I had no clue as a child, or in some cases, just months ago. Such is the natural process of growth.
1 Corinthians 1:8 says: "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." which is not a reference to salvation, but rather the help we recieve in living a godly life now.
2 Corinthians 2:15 says "For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing." In this sentence, is "being saved" used to indicate that among a group of people this thing is happening or that a process is happenign to individuals. For example, "In Pittsburgh, many people were being saved between 1990 and 1996, but that rate seemed to drop later." The answer to that is a very important distinction.
Phillippians 2:12 says: "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling," this is in the midst of a chapter addressing attitudes and behaviors. To "work out" our salvation here doesn't dispute that we are completely saved, it only shows that there is still work to do in order to fully live in that salvation, and by natural extension, the fruits of it.
Romans 5:9,10 says: "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
I haven't done a study on this, so certainly I don't want to say I'm speakign with certainty on the original Greek, but truly when I read this is get the personal impression that Paul is talking about being saved in the end. Not that He hasn't apprehended salvation already, but speaking more in the "going to Heaven" type of statement. In verse 9 he mentions "been justified" and from 10 to 11 stresses our reconcilliation to God in the past tense (been accomplished) three times.
1 Corinthians 3:12 - 15 says: "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
Verse 15 is the key to understanding this particualr group of verses. He himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. It's about the degree of reward in Heaven. Even if we focus on "will be saved", how does that render "is saved" null?
We are saved if we have trusted Christ because Christ has saved us. If I speak of Heaven and going there I can say we'll be saved from this world and not contradict myself. My spirit IS saved. My body is still here sufferring from the original fall and sin. It hasn't been saved yet.
Good discussion!
Some preach that all you have to do to achieve salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, and your salvation is assured. All you have to do id make that commitment and no matter what you do, you can be certain that you will go to Heaven. They will also tell you it is an impossible to ever lose your salvation.
I can only gather from this opening remark that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit of God comes in to live within the believer in Jesus. You not only don't believe this, but you see no change in the heart of man as a result of faith in Christ. Those who preach a 'commitment to Christ' often are only selling the idea of christianity. I made a commitment to my wife on our wedding day. I have kept that commitment. But I also have grown in relationship with her. How would our marriage be if I never welcomed her into my home and left her to live on her own? I could easily keep my commitment to be faithful to her alone and abandon the relationship. What I do towards the marriage is prove of not only my commitment to her, but the change in my heart from being a single man; I have changed. This is a weak example of the change of heart required for salvation. The commitment is important, but the realtionship and change of heart is also to be present.
After much discussion and study, one finds that belief is not only not Biblical, it is in reality a sin of presumption.
"There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit." Pg. 507, #2092
The above is the Catholic teaching and it militates against God and what He has revealed regarding salvation. What the teaching drives man to is bondage to religious activity. What Pball is suggesting is the exact opposite of faith. God's word says beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and your are saved - Pball is not willing to take God at His word.
Scripture teaches that one's final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
Again, I'll ask you to give the context of that passage you quote. I've asked before without response.
We know Adam and Eve, who received God's grace in a manner unmerited did demerit it and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a poetic charm, it does not stand up to what is in the Bible. "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26-29, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).
Adam and Eve lived in a time that started in innocence. I take it that you don't see times of God's administrations with man in the Scriptures. I also see that some beleive that they can undo the new creation. If one has really a change of heart and is a new creature in Christ, motivated and energized by the resident Holy Spirit how could they walk away? Answer this? How can one who has been changed in essence and given divine desires ever desire something contra-divine? To be able to walk away is not never have had it in the first place.
So with all this, can anyone really know if they are saved? Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter.
That's precisely why I quoted last time the passages about the Holy Spirit being witness to our standing before God to our own spirit. Every time I think I might not be saved, the Spirit of God witnesses and ministers to my spirit that I am.
Before you start to live every moment be in terror of losing your salvation, now that you know it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin, realize you can be confident of your present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace.
My present salvation is my permanant salvation. You confuse the state of my soul and my soul's standing before God. The efficiency of salvation is not based on how I feel about it (my state), it's how God sees it (my standing). I have been made the righeousness of God in Christ. I am seen as accepted in the Beloved. When God sees me, He sees Christ. How then can I be affraid of rejection by God? I can't. My life is hid WITH Christ IN God. Security to the utmost!
Paul, writing at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future.
Paul is the epitome of a transformed life in Christ. He's on his way to Damascus to destroy Christianity in a fervent way, spewing hate to the point of breathing fire. Read Acts 9 to see just what salvation does to the heart of man.
We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation.
Fruit is a quality not an essence. The fruit doesn't determine the tree, the tree determines the fruit.
As the Bible says, we are already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but we also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and we can have hope to be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15). Like the apostle Paul we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13).
Hope, in the world's phrase, refers only to an uncertain good, for all worldly hopes are tottering, built upon sand, and the worldling's hopes of heaven are blind and groundless conjectures. But the hope of the sons of the living God is a living hope; not only as to its object, but as to its effect also. It enlivens and
comforts in all distresses, enables to meet and get over all difficulties. Mercy is the spring of all this; yea, great mercy and manifold mercy. And this well-grounded hope of salvation, is an active and living principle of obedience in the soul of the believer. The matter of a Christian's joy, is the remembrance
of the happiness laid up for him. It is incorruptible, it cannot come to nothing, it is an estate that cannot be spent. Also undefiled; this signifies its purity and perfection. And it fadeth not; is not sometimes more or less pleasant, but ever the same, still like itself. All possessions here are stained with defects and failings; still something is wanting: fair houses have sad cares flying about the gilded and ceiled roofs; soft beds and full tables, are often with sick bodies and uneasy stomachs. All possessions are stained with
sin, either in getting or in using them. How ready we are to turn the things we possess into occasions and instruments of sin, and to think there is no liberty or delight in their use, without abusing them! Worldly possessions are uncertain and soon pass away, like the flowers and plants of the field. That must be of
the greatest worth, which is laid up in the highest and best place, in heaven. Happy are those whose hearts the Holy Spirit sets on this inheritance. God not only gives his people grace, but preserves them unto glory. Every believer has always something wherein he may greatly rejoice; it should show itself in the countenance and conduct. The Lord does not willingly afflict, yet his wise love often appoints sharp trials, to show his people their hearts, and to do them good at the latter end. Gold does not increase by trial in the fire, it becomes less; but faith is made firm, and multiplied, by troubles and afflictions. Gold must perish at last, and can only purchase perishing things, while the trial of faith will be found to praise, and honour, and glory. Let this reconcile us to present afflictions. Seek then to believe Christ's excellence in himself, and
his love to us; this will kindle such a fire in the heart as will make it rise up in a sacrifice of love to him. And the glory of God and our own happiness are so united, that if we sincerely seek the one now, we shall attain the other when the soul shall no more be subject to evil. The certainty of this hope is as if
believers had already received it. - Matthew Henry
How about a little context viewing on some of those "insecurity" verses?
Both times when Christ says "He who endures to the end will be saved", He is speaking of the Great Tribulation, not of salvation in general.
Isn't endless arguments like this one reason why Christ left a teaching church guided by the Holy Ghost to "teach all nations"?
It's hard to become like little children and accept the authority of another isn't it!
-Anony
It's hard to become like little children and accept the authority of another isn't it!
Not to be rude, but I'd have to ask the same of the Catholic church.
And no, it isn't hard to accept the authority of another. One just has to question and pray about which source of authority is correct.
Isn't endless arguments like this one reason why Christ left a teaching church guided by the Holy Ghost to "teach all nations"?
1 - this isn't an argument - it's a discussion
2 - it isn't endless
3 - the Church founded by Christ was a discipling Church - which is fundamentally different.
4 - this isn't the purpose of the Church
It's hard to become like little children and accept the authority of another isn't it!
Then it begs the question; who's authority? God's word, as shown by the Holy Spirit, is telling us something different than PBall is is.
God's word issues many instructions and warnings to test all things - again, looking at the original language, the testing is to "expose the authenticity".
How can I do that under your prescription? If I tell you something - do you just accept it on my authority? or do you test what I have said?
God has built into the natural world the ability to triangulate - he's given us that which to triangulate spiritual matters as well - and instructed us to do so.
I have a feeling some people, who will remain nameless, would have tried to correct the Apostles...just like the Judiazers did. Lean not unto your own understanding my brothers.
Jesus founded an authoritative teaching church. Men start different kinds. :)
-Anony
Didn't the Apostles discuss what Christ wanted amongst themselves too? Weren't the Bereans commended for double-checking what their teacher brought them? Healthy debate and discussion is goof because iron sharpens iron. It's when the debate is allowed to bring division that we have failed.
I have a feeling some people, who will remain nameless, would have tried to correct the Apostles...
Amen. Its been happening for almost 2000 years.
Jesus founded an authoritative teaching church.
And Paul warned that "A little leaven leavens the whole lump" (Galatians 5:9).
I have a feeling some people, who will remain nameless, would have tried to correct the Apostles...
you are the only nameless one here ... plus you are the only one who has yet to post a Scriptural response - which is an indication that the rest of us SUPPORT what the apostles taught.
Lean not unto your own understanding my brothers.
I'd be a millionaire if I had a dollar for every time I heard this. Seriously, where do you get off accusing people of self-reliance when they have sought to search the Scriptures (as instructed BY the Scriptures) prayerfully with the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus founded an authoritative teaching church.
Really? What does it say about the character of the Church in the Scriptures? It says that Christ is head over the Church, and the church is head over what? Nothing. You'll grasp this when you abandon the idea that the Church is something that people attend - it IS the people; ALL the people. The Church is subservient to Christ alone.
The only authority the Church might have is moral authority in witnessing to a lost world the glories of Christ.
Cont'd ...
Now the Church must put out that which defiles and is not of Christ - as the Scripture that NH quoted. In this the Church acts IN the power of Christ under the authority of His Name.
1 Cor 5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.
Please read Matt. 25: 40, 45, regarding works and salvation.
Anon,
This passage has to do with sheep and goats; with reality and nominality.
Notice ALL claim the Lord - ALL are called righteous; some are on the right hand and some are on the left; some are real some are not.
Those on the left were among the believers but were not part of them - essentially. Their actions didn't match the reality of having a life changed by Christ.
This passage does nothing for the case of salvation merited by works. It is much the opposite - works can be displayed by the real AND the fake - the Lord knows the heart; He knows who are his. He will judge righteously and will separate as shown in the passage.
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